No Speaker: (Music)
LC: Hello and welcome to episode 5 of the Ubuntu UK podcast with;
CD: Ciemon,
DW: Daviey,
AP: Alan,
TW: and I'm Tony.
AP: On the show this week:
CD: We're going to interview Pete Savage.
DW: We're going to talk to Laura about CLI vs. GUI.We have Hardy install experiences.
TW: We've got more sarcastic news.
AP: And have a chat with Phil Newborough.
CD: And we're going to give you the results of the competition.
TW: And read out your e-mails.
CD: Sounds like a fun packed show.
AP: Let's get on with it.
No Speaker: (Music)
AP: On the line we have Pete Savage, who has a presence on pretty much every Ubuntu machine on the planet, Pete how did that happen?
PS: That happened because I took it upon myself to design the startup sound for Ubuntu.
AP: The funky drums and stuff.
PS: The funky drums and stuff.
AP: Does it have a name?
PS: The edgy dance, as it was coined at one of the conferences I think.
TW: The edgy dance?
PS: Yeh.
AP: And is there a dance to go with it?
PS: I've never seen the dance, I wouldn't have the confidence.
AP: That's probably for the best to be honest.
PS: I think so.
AP: Because I'm sure Tony, at this point can insert the sound.
No Speaker: (Edgy Dance)
AP: You did start up and a shut down and what else?
PS: I actually only did the start up and the shut down.
AP: And the shut down nobody hears anymore do they?
PS: No, nobody hears anymore becase the tear down is too quick.
AP: It shuts down too quickly for it.How long was the shut down music?
PS: It was only about two or three seconds.
AP: But the machines shut down so quick you can't hear it.
TW: So how did you make the sounds, how do you make the music?
PS: Well it was all done using open source tools, using the Ardour package.Which is a fantastic multi tracker.A lot of people say it's very difficult to learn how to use, and I'd agree that if you haven't used multi trackers before, it is a bit daunting, but after you've used it for a bit it's fine. It's a really nice package to use and produces some really great results.I decided I was going to create these sounds and I had Korg X5D keyboard, which is where a lot of the sounds came from.And just played around with it, I did about ten sounds or so, and posted them up on the wiki and said to people, have a look, give me some comments on what you like and don't like.And then I coordinated with one of the art directors at the time, which was Frank Schoep, and we took them to Mark and said "do you want to have a listen?" and tell us which ones you like.And he picked the one out, which I must admit was the one that I preferred.
AP: The one that we currently have?
PS: The one that we currently have, but we cut it down considerably. It was about 12 seconds to begin with, and that was the length of time it took for my desktop to start up.But everybody elses seemed to be a lot shorter, so they said "No it goes on way to long".
AP: Yeh, people are already browsing the web by the time your start up's finished.
PS: Exactly.
TW: What sort of feedback did you have?
PS: We had very good feedback actually, there was a lot of comments on the Ubuntu wiki, and I think they're all still there and the links to all the original sounds that I created are still there.Infact the sounds changed quite considerably, originally we start off with a very low bit sound, so we took it down to about 8-bit and really bit crunched it until it sounded very tinny and very distorted.And then as it moved through it faded from that to a very high quality version.
AP: Yeh I remember that.
PS: Yeh, it was kind of like a transition to show how you were moving into a different world as you were loading up Ubuntu, but unfortunately that was'nt so well received so we cut that out and just went with the standard sound. One of the sounds I use on my phone as an SMS message received tone, it works quite well.
AP: And it's still in Ubuntu now
PS: It is, I am really surprised actually, somebody filed a bug against it in Launchpad as well.
AP: Really?
PS: There was a Launchpad bug saying "Please revert the edgy sound"
AP: Oh god yeah.
TW: Back to the ones that were in Dapper
AP: Do you know what, I can't even remember the sound that was in Dapper, it's that long ago.
PS: I can't remember either.
AP: You've also been involved in the Edubuntu project, what's Edubuntu all about?
PS: Edubuntu used to be almost a seperate distro with Ubuntu as its base, now it's moved more to an add-on CD and that's the way it's going to be moving towards I think.
AP: And what do you get in Edubuntu that you don't get in standard Ubuntu or Kubuntu or Xubuntu.
PS: Edubuntu was primarily geared towards the educational sector, and had different packages preinstalled with educational tools and different artwork and things like that.
AP: Designed for kids?
PS: Well originally designed more for kids but when I was involved we were trying to gear it more towards education in general and providing different themes and tools so it would be happily placed at university level and college level as well.
AP: And do you know if its being used heavily?
PS: We were getting quite a few people come back and say "Yeh, I am using this in the classroom" and it was getting very heavily used, I think more in the third world countries and places like that.
AP: It uses LTSP doesn't it?
PS: Yeah, the thin client system, very good to set-up, infact the Edubuntu install disc that we used to use, I can't say about the current one because I haven't used it, but the one that we used to use in Edgy and Feisty had the LTSP system all installed when you installed the server.And you could then just quite happily boot up clients, they'd pick up an IP address from that server and the DHCP server would also send out information about the TFTP file and where it should download it, and it would then download a very thinned down Linux OS, which basically just consisted of an X server.It would then boot back off of the main server and you would be using a graphical terminal which was present on the server instead of running anything off the client.
AP: So you use like really thin, almost dumb terminal? Cool.
PS: And of course it's very good from an administration point of view, if you want to install an application on everybody's machine, then you just install it on the server and it magically appears on everybody's machine, no reboots, no nothing.
TW: And are there admin tools built into it, that are suitable for administering internet access and things for school children?
PS: I believe they were being developed at the time we were working on developing those, and I actually worked on thin client manager, which was kind of a administration system.Just when I stopped working on it we were just getting to the stage were you could watch people's screens and then blank their screen out, you could log them off, you could send them a message, it was coming along quite nicely.
DW: So did you actually use VNC for that? Or was that something else you used to actually monitor the people.
PS: That was VNC. We were looking at writing a kind of driver that would work on the client itself and build it into the X server, but we were actually using VNC to begin with and as such it was a little slow and it required some optimising, but we got there in the end.
DW: Was there actually content filtering included in the distro like DansGuardian or something similar?
PS: It was being worked on but at the time when I was working at it I do not think it was actually put in place and finished. Not in an easy form of use anyway, but it was being worked on.
TW: Do you know what sort of deployments it has got, whether it has got any large take up.
PS: I do not know, we got quite a few people coming back and saying "I am using this in a fairly large establishment" and indeed one of the things that I was trying to do when I was there was to consolodate this information and put it up somewhere so people could go along and see who was using this, but it was one of the many things that we tried to do and I never really got round to doing.
AP: So you do not work on Edubuntu anymore at the moment?
PS: Not at the moment, no my time has been taken up with many other things.
AP: One of those other things is a video podcast that you have put together called progbox?
PS: Indeed progbox, yeh.
AP: What made you decide to create a video podcast?
PS: I first of all decided I wanted to do an audio podcast and then I decided that nobody really wanted to listen to my voice for half an hour.
No Speaker: (Laughter)
AP: We think the same thing, you would be suprised.
PS: So I decided I would make it a bit more interesting and turn it into a video podcast. It basically started as a "can I actually do this" using free software. Is this actually going to be possible, can I do all the video editing and with the equipment that I had because I do not have a proper video camera at all. I am using an Olympus C8080 still camera just switching it to video mode.It was basically a challenge to myself. Can I do this, can I make it interesting and are people actually going to watch it.
AP: What tools do you use?
PS: I am currently using KDEnlive, which is a nice video editor. When I first started using it, it crashed a lot, but then Keno crashed about the same amount.This is a couple of years back so I never really looked at it much again, really easy to use doing video transitions like fade, picture in picture. Things like that.
CD: Have you thought about accessibility of your video cast, subtitles and things like that? As something that you maybe want to aim towards?
PS: I have indeed and I was actually asked by somebody, "are you going to put subtitles in because I am deaf and I would really like to watch the podcast". The main way I distribute the podcast at the moment is through Miro and I asked the guys at Miro "do you have subtitle support?" and they said no.So I think it is something they are working on, but currently we do not have subtitle support on there.
AP: Who is your target audience?
PS: Target audience is anyone really who is interested in open source, computers in general, technology, and just trying to raise awareness of some cool things that I have found so that other people can have a go with them and maybe take them on and expand them further.
AP: How often do you plan to put an episode out?
PS: At the moment it is a kind of when I can, it is supposed to be monthly but if I can do it more than monthly then that is also good for me.I am in discussion with some other people who have got some interest in producing a video cast, so we are wondering if we can amalgamate them all together under the progbox name, but kind of rotate it so each person would do one and then we could possible release once a week even.With the option of if you get on better with somebodies podcast you could just have their feed, where as if you want to get all of them you could use the generic feed and get everybody.
AP: Right
TW: I just wanted to ask, is it true that you decided to do a video podcast rather than an audio one so that people can admire your hair?
PS: No, surprisingly. I have had comments about my hair, most notably from you Tony.
No Speaker: (Laughter)
PS: Who always seems to find new and interesting ways to comment on my hair on which ever website a picture of me happens to appear.
No Speaker: (Laughter)
TW: That is because you always have new and interesting hair.
PS: It is true.
AP: Well thanks very much for coming on the show Pete, and give us the URL to your website so if anyone wants to watch the video, they know where to go.
PS: OK, the URL is http://progbox.co.uk/ and you can find all the information there.
AP: Great stuff, thanks Pete.
CD: Cheers Pete.
DW: Brilliant, thank you Pete.
TW: Thank you.
PS: Cheers
No Speaker: Music
AP: In episode three we talked about the command line and GUIs, and actually while we were there, doing our piece, someone was sat in the corner of the room itching to speak but did not have a microphone. Now you do Laura.What was it you were getting so angry bout?
LC: Basically I agree with the idea that if you have to drop to the command line in Ubuntu it is a bug. As long as you qualify that as doing tasks that a normal person would do.Reconfiguring an apache server I do not consider a normal task, so I think that is fair enough that you would have to drop to the command line, but if you expect somebody frequently to have to use the command line to say.
AP: Connect to the internet
LC: Connect to the internet, or mount a USB drive, or get music on to their iPod, I think that is a bug because your average person does not care about Linux under the covers, they just want to use the computer as a tool.
AP: So is that more in the desktop environment
LC: Yes.
AP: You should not have to use a command line, but in a server or advanced administration environment you should, or would expect to?
LC: Normal everyday things like e-mail, getting photos off a digital camera, editing your photos. Even making little movies and things, it does not have to be like a video cast or anything it could just be a home movie. That sort of thing your average person could do on Windows or a Mac or whatever, and they should be able to do that on Ubuntu as well. That is the point.
AP: So having to drop to the command line to use a command like ffmpeg to do re-encoding of stuff is a bug really, it should be wrapped around in a GUI or something like that?
LC: One of the things you were talking about was that a GUI is for new users and a command line is for experience users, which I do not think is quite right either because command line is fine for if you want to do certain things, and you want to do them faster, you want to do them repeatitively or whatever.I use Ubuntu on the desktop and I have used Linux on the desktop for quite a few years now, and I get really irritated if I have to use a command line to do some basic thing, like mount a USB key, because for whatever reason it is not worked.
AP: What is it that makes you cross or angry or annoyed having to drop to the command line? Is it jus the annoyance that "Oh I have to learn something that I should not have to, it should be a button"?
LC: I think it is if I have not done it frequently, I just do not remember it. So it means I have got to go and look it up, which is time out from what I am trying to do.
AP: Right, you are wasting time or wasting brain capacity on stuff like obscure command line parameters.
LC: I just want to get the photos of the camera. One thing was that, like I say when you were talking new users and experienced and things, there is this kind of attitude, not just here in general, that a GUI is kind of just a front end bolted on to a command line functionality, or a script or whatever. Which if it is a well designed GUI it is not that.When I was at FOSDEM in February I went to a Debian accessibility session and the presenter there did a really good presentation about the issues about making a GUI screen reader accessible, and why you should do it and the benefits and things like that, and one of the people in the audience asked a question saying that "Why do we need to bother? Can't a blind person use the command line?" because the command line would work well with a screen reader because it is all text and there are no pictures are there is no two dimensional layout to deal with or anything.
AP: Nothing that it is going to get confused by.
LC: Exactly, if all the GUI is, is a visual representation of the command line, then you could possibly say that. But a well designed GUI completely changes the experience, it fits what the user is trying to do and how they think and how they expect to interact with the machine.If you want to reheat last nights take-away and you are tired, you are hungover and you are hungry, and you do not really want to have to think up the correct sequence of commands to enter. To do that you just want to do it because you want to get to your food.Think like that when you are thinking about putting a digital camera into a laptop, plugging it in, getting photos off. You do not care how it interacts with the system, you do not want to go to lots of trouble to make it work, it should just work. Which on Ubuntu on the whole it does now.
AP: So I should always whenever I picture myself doing something on UbuntuI should think of myself being tired, hungry and hungover whenever I do it and that will make me think of the GUI?
LC: It is not just thinking of the GUI it is just making it easy and not expecting people to have to go look it up in the documentation, and I am a technical writer so I appreciate documentation but I do not appreciate having to go look things up and Google it which is one of the comments in the episode that you were talking about.
AP: Well thanks for that feedback, I appreciate it and sorry you had to sit there in pain when we actually recorded the episode the first time without a microphone. Are you going to stick around for the rest of the show?
LC: Yeah.
AP: Cool.
No Speaker: Music
AP: So have we upgraded to Hardy yet?
TW: Yep.
AP: Right, so how did you upgrade then, how did you upgrade to Hardy?
TW: Well I tried to upgrade using the update manager, and I clicked the little button where it said "There is a new release available, click here to upgrade."
AP: When was this after the release date?
TW: Yes, a day or two after the release date. And the first thing it did was blat all the sources of my local mirrors.
AP: Yeh, now this is a funny thing because you've got your own local mirror, your own copy.
TW: Yeh, I run apt-mirror which creates a whole copy of any particular archive, so I have told it to mirror all the Hardy packages, so when I wanted to install something it installs over my LAN rather than over the internet and things like OpenOffice.org updates do not take two years to download and install. It is already there.
AP: It is really useful if you have got multiple machines I guess.
TW: Exactly which I have got.
AP: So you have got your local mirror and you hit the button in update manager to say "I want to upgrade to the new release" and it just went horribly wrong, or it just did not use your local mirror?
TW: It did not use my local mirrors, all its got to do is replace 'gutsy' in the sources list with 'hardy' rather than blatting all of the lines that are in your sources list and overwritting them. But if you have got your own local repo you are probably a competent enough sysadmin to know what to do in terms of editing sources.list.But it would be lovely to be able to click on the icon and do it in the GUI the same way as everyone else does because I end up doing it on the command line using aptitude and aptitude dist-upgrade.
AP: Obviously the question is have you field a bug against update manager?
TW: No.
AP: Well there you go, shutup then.
DW: But you will have by the time our audience listens to this.
TW: I may have done, there may well already be one. To be honest I have not looked, it was a bit of an annoyance last time around and it was still annoying this time around, but I do it once every six months and it does not really annoy me enough to get me off my backside to file a bug.
AP: So that aside, you have upgraded and everything is fine?
TW: Yes actually, I was really pleased and quite impressed. There were more things fixed in Hardy than broke which is good for me on my Samsung Q45 laptop, which is the only machine I have upgraded so far.There were a couple of broken packages when I was actually doing the upgrade that meant I had to run dist-upgrade a couple of times. I somehow ended up with the Xubuntu GDM, the login screen which I am not quite sure how I ended up with that.Desktop effects now works on my laptop, so I can get all the 'slidy', 'spinny', 'uppy' 'downy' goodness.
AP: And do you use it?
TW: It is on by default now so yeah.
AP: Ah, OK.
TW: The resolution is now OK on my Q45.
AP: It was the wrong resolution previously wasn't it?
TW: It did not support the widescreen resolution.
AP: Intel graphics card?
TW: Yeah, Intel graphics card, and Alan, during one of our podcast recordings rather bravely said "I will fix that for you", "I have tried Alan", "Oh no I shall fix it for you." and after 20 minutes grumpily admitted that he might have been defeated by this, but thankfully it is fixed properly in Hardy.And even better VGA out now works, so I can now use my laptop for presentations.
AP: How often do you do that? (Laughs)
TW: Well now I can do it more often.
No Speaker: (Laughter)
TW: And it is configurable via the screen resolution config tool as well, so I did not need to edit any config files.
AP: So overall, on a score out of five, how would you say the upgrade experience and post upgrade experience has gone?
TW: I am going to go at four and a half out of five.
AP: Four and a half out of five? That is good.
TW: Suspend and hibernate now seem to work as well.
AP: So what was your experience, when did you upgrade?
DW: I upgraded on this laptop quite early on in the release cycle.
AP: That is a Thinkpad X series by the look of it.
DW: Yes the X61 'swirly top'.
AP: Tablet I think you will find the word is.
DW: I upgraded using the, well I actually changed the source list.
AP: Work alright?
DW: Yeah, this one is quite an old one and I have put it up to a fresh install to test it better. Only tried suspend recently and that did not work, this is quite a messy install where it has gone through a few distributions. I think it is time for me to actually do reinstall of this. I actually have upgraded a few servers this week, doing the do-release-upgrade and that is actually a fantastic tool to use over ssh.
CD: Yeah, I agree, I have used that as well. Really really cool.
AP: So did I.
CD: I have got family computers which I have upgraded, and infact one I started the upgrade and had to leave my computer and for whatever reason the ssh link died, and I did not know how to get it back. I was concerned that if I just logged back in and rebooted it then it would involve a massive trip to go and install it manually, but rebooted it and the do-release-upgrade just picked up where it left off.
TW: What is the difference between the do-release-upgrade and aptitude dist-upgrade?
DW: Well it is actually a python wrapper that actually does apt stuff in the background, but one thing I find particularly useful is actually doing it over ssh, it detects you are actually doing it over ssh and actually opens a seperate ssh daemon on port 9002 I believe. So the idea being if the ssh session you are in dies, then you can actually still get into the server, which is really quite handy.
AP: But I mean there are other checks and things that it does. It will disable third party repositories in your sources.list for example.
TW: It does not sound hugely incredibly useful to be honest.
AP: Why?
TW: Because I do not see what I get out of it over just running dist-upgrade in a screen.
AP: I have not read the code so I do not know exactly what it does.
DW: The thing is you just fire off one command and just forget about it.
TW: Do you not want to check what is going on?
DW: Well that is why I am looking at the source code, right as we speak.
TW: So where is the time saving? "Oh yes it is a really great script, I just have to poke through the source code to work out what it is doing, oo that helps me administer my systems."
DW: I am looking because I am choosing to look. Now if we are looking at everyday users, who do you servers, then they do not have to do that. They just have to fire off one command, 'do-release-upgrade', easy to remember, and it upgrades.
AP: I would be willing to bet you have not looked at the source code for apt either Tony.
TW: No I have not, but I sit and watch what it is saying on the screen when I am doing an upgrade. So I can spot the errors.
AP: I tend to go and have a cup of tea, I cannot imagine that the Ubuntu developers would come up with this wrapper for no reason, there must be something in it.
TW: I am sure, I just cannot see what that is.
AP: Out of five, what do you reckon?
DW: I have got no real complaints, it worked, so I would probably say, I will go with Tony and go four and a half.
AP: Ciemon, how about you, have you upgraded any machines?
CD: Yeah, I have a number. I have been following on my Dell laptop from beta, that has upgraded continuously through. I have done a fresh install on my daughters laptop, I have done the remote installed using 'do-release-upgrade' and I have done a fresh install on a new HP G6000, which was fine. Actually, the install was fine but I have got graphics issues.
AP: You have got Nvidia?
CD: Yeah, which I have tried to fix but that is not really, I do not think, a Hardy Ubuntu issue at all actually.
AP: User failure is that?
CD: Yeah, anyway it is not working.
AP: We will have a play with that.
CD: But, we will have a play with that.
TW: Alan can promise to fix yours as well.
CD: So I will match your 4.5 to be honest I will probably go for a five as I have had absolutely no problems at all with it.
DW: There was one server I upgraded this week, now I did a release upgrade from Dapper to Hardy and I was actually quite concerned about this.
AP: How old is Dapper now, that is 6.06.
DW: Well, 2006 second half, well middle.
TW: Basically two years.
DW: Yeah, to do an upgrade from that, that has been tested well, server, it was in use and I was worried that some of the tweaks I had possibily done would not work through an upgrade and it worked fine.
TW: But then two years is not really all that long. It has seen quite a few Ubuntu revisions, but as Mark Shuttleworth said in the last show. Debian will go from releases that are three or four or five years apart, and effectively be a support upgrade between those releases. So it is those kind of underpinnings which mean it should just work upgrading it with two year upgrades.
DW: I mean the actual upgrades will work and the packages will work, but I am talking about when these machines get heavily used and you install none packaged software on there, I always get concerned when I am upgrading them because they might get left behind.
AP: Yeah, they do not get tested as thoroughly.
DW: I mean things like Zimbra and things like that. That was one I had to upgrade this week and I was quite concerned that that would just break with huge downtime and when it just works it really is a good feeling.
AP: Laura, you have got a laptop there, is that one that you have upgraded?
LC: Yes it is my Samsung Q35 and that upgraded OK. I was not that keen on Gutsy as a distribution, I cannot remember exactly what, but I had all kinds of problems. And the sound now works.
AP: That is a bonus.
DW: Your card reader did not work under Gutsy did it?
LC: My card reader only works now because I have bought an SD card instead of an MMC card.
DW: Have you tried an MMC card in there since the upgrade?
LC: I think so, yes.
DW: And is that working now?
LC: No.
DW: Aww.
LC: It is a known issue.
AP: I think Laura is not going to give it five out of five.
LC: I am not giving it five out of five because the desktop effects still does not work.
AP: Ah really, what out of five?
LC: Four.
AP: Four, only four, that is still not bad.
LC: Which is quite harsh around here apparently.
No Speaker: (Laughter)
AP: Well I have had a desktop that has been running Hardy since Alpha and I have had no problems with that, it has got dual screen, Nvidia binary driver, it has got loads of stuff plugged into it like USB keyboard and webcam and all kinds of funky stuff. USB sound card, I still have issues with the PulseAudio because there is a game that I like to play that does not work with it. But I think that is a PulseAudio, ALSA, OSS type issue not a specifically Hardy issue, although obviously upgrading to Hardy has broken that game for me.I have got a Toshiba laptop that I have upgraded to Hardy that just works, no problem at all everything works. Touchscreen, it is a tablet as well, card reader, network, sound, everything just works. I think the only thing I have not actually tested is the modem because I never use the modem anymore. Yeah, everything works.
DW: I remember you saying during the week you did have a problem upgrading in so far as you only had a couple of Gigs spare on the disk, you did not have very much space.
AP: That was on the Asus Eee PC, I ran out of disk space on that when I tried to upgrade to Hardy.
DW: As I say, you only need that space for a short time whilst you actually do the upgrade and then you have that space back again. That is potentially a bug.
AP: No.
TW: No it is not.
AP: It is delete some files, be more organised and do not be such a hoarder.
TW: What would be good is if the update thing said "You have insufficient disk space to continue." I have never tried it on a system.
AP: Yes it does.
TW: It does do that?
AP: It does exactly that.
TW: The update manager cannot give you more disc space.
DW: What I mean is, is there potential for better organisation, so download packages as you are upgrading.
AP: Actually I have seen a couple of people mention a couple of things along this line. Like for example downloading as you go and also asking all the questions upfront, I think one of the guys on the Fresh Ubuntu podcast complained that the fact he left his upgrade running and then in the middle of the night it stopped to ask him a question and the next day he walks up to his machine thinking it would be finished and actually it is asking a question.It is a reasonable request to make to say all the questions should be done upfront, but one of the problems is that the question that it asks are so late in the process that it is difficult for it to tell what questions it would need to ask until it gets into a situation were there is a conflict that needs resolving.
TW: Presumably it is a bit of a catch 22 because on one hand you want to download the packages as you go, on the other hand you want to download all the packages to get all the questions out of them, because those upgrade questions are part of those packages, to ask you all the questions at the beginning. So if you download as you go you cannot get all the questions at the beginning, if you want all the questions at the beginning you cannot download as you go.
AP: There is a corporate application that I use at work which has two methods for doing upgrades when you are upgrading it. One is downtime minimised and one is disc space minimised, so it could well be that in the future we have upgrades which have an option, you can choose to have minimised downtime that takes up lots and lots of disc space because it brings down all the packages and then does a flip to turn all the new packages on, and asks you all the questions and deal with all that upfront and then you just flick a switch and its upgraded. Or a disc space minimised one where it downloads the packages as it needs it, but it takes a long time and you get a long amount of downtime. I do not know if that kind of thing would be possible with the upgrade tools.
DW: Yeah, to actually have the choice between. I think that is potentially a good idea.
AP: Yeah, you write that.
TW: Alans score, what is your score?
AP: I would actually give it a four and a half.
TW: Wow.
AP: Well just because the sound did not work and OK it is not really a Hardy problem, well the sound does work on both my machines that I upgraded but it is just that one game.It is four an a three quarters.
AP: Alright, four and three quarters.
TW: Right who is going to work out the average of all those?
AP: It is 4.45 thanks to my Ubuntu calculator. We give Ubuntu Hardy 4.45 out of 5.Music
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